Printing probs....Help Please!

[dusktildawn]

Hi folks. Wonder if anyone can help?

I currently use a Canon Pixma Pro 9000 for my prints. I only use dedicated Canon Inks and papers. My screen is regularly calibrated using Spyder Express (At least monthly) but I'm finding a huge difference in what I'm seeing on screen to that which is printed.

The prints appear to be much darker a lose details in the shadows. Colours appear significantly more saturated. It's costing me a small fortune in paper and ink!!

In the print dialogue box I set it to "allow Photoshop to determine the colours" I select the medium i.e. Canon Fine Art Photo Rag. I make sure that I've set the right colour space (adobe 98).

Where am I going wrong? Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I've got to print out 20 images for my final Graded Unit and have our exhibition looming.

Cheers :)

[bartonflyer]

I presume this is in Windows?

Are you using colour management within the printer setup - i.e. have you assigned a .icm file that is defined for that printer? If so, then try printing without the colour management defined as you say that you have ticked the option for PS to do it - if you have colour management appplied twice then you can certainly get problems - if not then try the opposite and turn on colour management for the printer.

Finally - if you are really stuck try Qimage from www.ddisoftware.com/qimage/ which I guarantee will solve all the problems - though you might have a bit of heartache setting it up at first :-) - Their tech support is incredibly good.

Cheers
Ian

[Bandit]

Hi Charley,

Been there done it, worn the T shirt etc. I gave up, got sick of wasting paper and ink. I now get my prints done commercialy, never looked bac since. The end result is better and actually cheaper considering how much paper I used to waste.

[dusktildawn]

I presume this is in Windows?

Are you using colour management within the printer setup - i.e. have you assigned a .icm file that is defined for that printer? If so, then try printing without the colour management defined as you say that you have ticked the option for PS to do it - if you have colour management appplied twice then you can certainly get problems - if not then try the opposite and turn on colour management for the printer.

Finally - if you are really stuck try Qimage from www.ddisoftware.com/qimage/ which I guarantee will solve all the problems - though you might have a bit of heartache setting it up at first :-) - Their tech support is incredibly good.

Cheers
Ian

Thanks for that Ian....I'm actually running a Mac running OSX 10.4.11. I've installed the printer drivers for the printer and select this from the list of the two printers I have attached to the machine. The other being an old Epson Stylus Scan 2500. Call me thick...cos I am ;) but I don't understand what is meant by assigning a .icm profile! Can you elaborate? Cheers Mate.
I'll defo have a wee look at the link...Much appreciated.

Hi Charley,

Been there done it, worn the T shirt etc. I gave up, got sick of wasting paper and ink. I now get my prints done commercialy, never looked bac since. The end result is better and actually cheaper considering how much paper I used to waste.

Seems that this may be the direction I'll eventually have to go down Mate.

Gonna give it one last try though :)

Thanks again.

[Bandit]

Think of the time involved too Charley. Very few pro togs ( you will be one one day) have the time to print their own work. Time is money.:grin:

[dusktildawn]

Think of the time involved too Charley. Very few pro togs ( you will be one one day) have the time to print their own work. Time is money.:grin:

Your right Mate! Just splashed out a bunch of £££ for this bloody thing. Thought that it would be a wise move....Guess I was wrong.

My problem is though that even if I use a pro printing company I'll get the same results. I've no idea (or confidence) that what I'm seeing on screen will be duplicated in print. How do I overcome this prob Mate without it costing a bunch of money?

If I send the images to a printer and they turn out just as crap will they print them again FOC with the corrections. It's something I'm completely new to....


Let me know what you think Mate.

Cheers
Charley :)

[Bandit]

I get my stuff pinted by Loxley Colour. You can tick a box ( free service) colour correct..works for me. The prints come back really pop. :ok:

[george.monaghan]

Hi Mate,

Try using SRGB rather than Adobe RGB which is design rules for printing - and is complicated.

Your monitor is not Adobe colour profiled - so setting it up to print Adobe will not work.

Printers can send you ICC profiles whcih you can load into PS to see how you images will look to their print engines.

[dusktildawn]

I get my stuff pinted by Loxley Colour. You can tick a box ( free service) colour correct..works for me. The prints come back really pop. :ok:

Cheers Bandit....A few of my colleagues at college are using Loxley's. I've got their site but have yet to register....Reckon I'm going to have to go with this option though....Cheers Mate!

Hi Mate,

Try using SRGB rather than Adobe RGB which is design rules for printing - and is complicated.

Your monitor is not Adobe colour profiled - so setting it up to print Adobe will not work.

Printers can send you ICC profiles whcih you can load into PS to see how you images will look to their print engines.

Hiya George.... Thanks for the info Mate....From day one at College I've been taught ONLY to use Adobe 98 as it holds a greater colour space and according to my tutors will replicate a greater gamut of colours. However, after listening to Guy Gowan at the Photovision workshop I found that I'm back to square 1. I was under the impression that sRGB was only for use on web images. He apparently shoots EVERYTHING in sRGB and at 1.5 stops over exposed!!

The College (and the briefs) expressly state that the colour profile HAS to be Adobe 1998!!! Whilst I appreciate that printers will provide the ICC profiles surely the software accompanying the printer will load the respective ICC info. After all, as previously stated, I'm only using Canon ink and dedicated papers......Is it worth it.....Costs about a tenner for the tiny ink tanks and over £50 for 20 sheets of the paper!!


Thanks for your feedback Mate.

I'm extremely grateful for all info.

Cheers

Charley

[copycat]

Charley

I used to have similar problems, everything I printed was a stop too dark, till I learnt about the difference between Mac and pc Gamma values.

Pc's use gamma at @ 2.1 and Mac's gamma is set to 1.8. so in preferences choose displays - colour - srgb iec61966 - 2.1. you will notice how much brighter your screen is instantly. Then open an image in photoshop adjust to suit the new gamma setting and print. See if this helps.

[dusktildawn]

Charley

I used to have similar problems, everything I printed was a stop too dark, till I learnt about the difference between Mac and pc Gamma values.

Pc's use gamma at @ 2.1 and Mac's gamma is set to 1.8. so in preferences choose displays - colour - srgb iec61966 - 2.1. you will notice how much brighter your screen is instantly. Then open an image in photoshop adjust to suit the new gamma setting and print. See if this helps.

Cheers Mate...I'll give it a go.....Nothing ventured and all that.

All the best.
Charley

[george.monaghan]

Hi Mate,

Look here: http://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/AdobeRGB1998.pdf

If you can understand that - you are a better man than I! :icon_nice

Your monitor should check and correct gamma values but these are normally left to factory defaults.

No matter what you tutors say Adobe is designed for high end print output - it says so on the tin!! Use srgb which is perfectly acceptable for home printing - use the same in camera if given the choice - srgb and not Adobe RGB.:icon_nice

If that fails then get on the the makers help/support for advice.

[bartonflyer]

Sorry Charley but I know sweet FA about macs - the .icm stuff is how Windows applies colour management profiles, but what happens on a Mac I'm afraid is a mystery to me.
Best of luck!!

[Dave Ashton]

Hi Charly,

I did send you an email on this, however it kept pinging back? anyway heres what i put.

Morning Charlie,

In response to your enquiry re business cards. Unfortunately its not something we do here as we are solely photographic printers. However I always use printing.com they have stores throughout the uk. Well priced and good quality. The following is a link to there website :
http://www.fluidmedia.net/

In answer to your printer problem its hard to say as there can be that many variables with these inkjets. However it may be worth checking the following.

From what you are saying about the cast and losing shadow contrast. That is very reminiscent of a ADOBE colour space being printed in sRGB. Check that your printers driver settings are not converting the colour space automatically to sRGB? Most printers will do this by default although I do not know this particular model. The other place to check is that Photoshop is set up to work in the same colour space as you are shooting (color settings in the edit menu). If its isn't what you see on screen isn't a true representation of what you have.

The only other reason I can think of for the problem would be that the printers driver requires a profile for the type of paper you use? Something Canon should be able to advise you on better than I.

Hope this helps,

Dave

I addition to this as Bandit stated much easier & cheaper to have your prints done by a commercial printer. Sounds biased comming from me, but its true. All decent labs will correct images if needed & your colour profile would be irrelivant as commercial labs read embedded profiles and print accordingly.

[dusktildawn]

Hi Mate,

Look here: http://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/AdobeRGB1998.pdf

If you can understand that - you are a better man than I! :icon_nice

Your monitor should check and correct gamma values but these are normally left to factory defaults.

No matter what you tutors say Adobe is designed for high end print output - it says so on the tin!! Use srgb which is perfectly acceptable for home printing - use the same in camera if given the choice - srgb and not Adobe RGB.:icon_nice

If that fails then get on the the makers help/support for advice.

Thanks again George for all your kind help/advice Mate. I'll try the sRGB option and see if it makes a difference. All the best :)

Sorry Charley but I know sweet FA about macs - the .icm stuff is how Windows applies colour management profiles, but what happens on a Mac I'm afraid is a mystery to me.
Best of luck!!

No prob's Ian. I appreciate you taking the time to explain. Many thanks! :)

Hi Charly,

I did send you an email on this, however it kept pinging back? anyway heres what i put.

Morning Charlie,

In response to your enquiry re business cards. Unfortunately its not something we do here as we are solely photographic printers. However I always use printing.com they have stores throughout the uk. Well priced and good quality. The following is a link to there website :
http://www.fluidmedia.net/

In answer to your printer problem its hard to say as there can be that many variables with these inkjets. However it may be worth checking the following.

From what you are saying about the cast and losing shadow contrast. That is very reminiscent of a ADOBE colour space being printed in sRGB. Check that your printers driver settings are not converting the colour space automatically to sRGB? Most printers will do this by default although I do not know this particular model. The other place to check is that Photoshop is set up to work in the same colour space as you are shooting (color settings in the edit menu). If its isn't what you see on screen isn't a true representation of what you have.

The only other reason I can think of for the problem would be that the printers driver requires a profile for the type of paper you use? Something Canon should be able to advise you on better than I.

Hope this helps,

Dave

I addition to this as Bandit stated much easier & cheaper to have your prints done by a commercial printer. Sounds biased comming from me, but its true. All decent labs will correct images if needed & your colour profile would be irrelivant as commercial labs read embedded profiles and print accordingly.

Thanks for getting back in touch Dave. My internet was down for a few days hence the problems getting email. I'll double check the printer set up but reckon I'll take your advice and get these done by a pro. Nearer the time I'll email you to get a costing Mate. Meantime I'll check out the link that you kindly provided regards the business cards.

Thanks again to you all for your kind input.

All the very best.

Charley

[canonman]

Your tutors are absolutely correct in saying that if you intend to print output your images, then Adobe RGB 1998 is the colour space in which to work. Obviously make sure that your camera is set to record in that space, most high end DSLR's will allow sRGB and RGB as options.

sRGB was designed purely for web use, and thus attempts to give an acceptable rendition to an "average" colour monitor. If print output is the priority, use RGB and calibrate within that space......lots of ways to do this from very inexpensive to very very expensive.

I haven't read through this thread closely, but I don't remember you talking about the "printer settings" when you come to print. It is obviously critical to select the type of paper onto which you are printing. Quite often a printer will keep reverting back to a default setting (ie plain paper), printing using this setting will not give the result you are after.

Also perhaps you need to explore Photoshops "printing and proofing" utility, which is vital for accurate output. Providing your printer has installed correctly with the suplied profiles, this should help big-time.

Work like this.....using a copy of the image you want to print.....just in case everything goes pear-shaped!

1. Open image in PS, then go to...window...workspace...printing and proofing.
2 A box will appear warning you that you are about to alter the workspace/menu settings etc. Click yes. Don't worry, when finished here you can go back to default like this.........window....workspace......default.
3. The appearence and familiar layers palette will now look different.
4. Now go to ...... view......proof set up.......custom.
5. You will now have a "Customize proof condition" window on screen. In this window go to drop down box "Device to simulate" then trawl down through the options.
6. At this stage you are looking for the print profile for the intended output. In your case it will be a pre-fix abbreviation for Canon (printer make) or perhaps just model name or number (pix or similar). For example my Epson pro 3800 appears in the list as PRO38. After this abbreviation will appear abreviation for paper types. If im printing onto premium glossy photo-paper, the profile I'm looking for is PRO38PGPP.
7. Once you select the correct profile, your image on screen will alter drastically. This is a far more accurate attempt to display how the image will look when printed onto your selected paper. If you don't like what yo see on screen now, you need to colour balance, check levels etc etc until you like what you see. Now print and you should be much closer to getting what you intended.

If you are operating Mac OSX, chances are the monitor is pretty good. The majority of recent day Apple monitors need very little calibration if you work in Adobe RGB.

This may sound very long-winded, once you have done it a couple of times it will be second-nature. this is a much overlooked aspect of obtaining great prints. This is a very simple work-flow, it can be far more complex to get every ounce out of your picture, but this is a good starting point.

Printing is a difficult thing to master, but just requires a little understanding and a methodical consisitent approach.......you will be rewarded if you get to grips with it all !!

Hope you give it a go ??

[dusktildawn]

Your tutors are absolutely correct in saying that if you intend to print output your images, then Adobe RGB 1998 is the colour space in which to work. Obviously make sure that your camera is set to record in that space, most high end DSLR's will allow sRGB and RGB as options.

I'm using a Canon 30D....Colour space is set to Adobe 98. PS Colour Settings are set to match.

sRGB was designed purely for web use, and thus attempts to give an acceptable rendition to an "average" colour monitor. If print output is the priority, use RGB and calibrate within that space......lots of ways to do this from very inexpensive to very very expensive.

I haven't read through this thread closely, but I don't remember you talking about the "printer settings" when you come to print. It is obviously critical to select the type of paper onto which you are printing. Quite often a printer will keep reverting back to a default setting (ie plain paper), printing using this setting will not give the result you are after.

I've been using Canon Fine Art Photorag and I'm always sure to select the correct paper from the "medium" drop down.

Also perhaps you need to explore Photoshops "printing and proofing" utility, which is vital for accurate output. Providing your printer has installed correctly with the suplied profiles, this should help big-time.

I loaded the ICC profiles from the software CD provided so I'm assuming that these are in order.

Work like this.....using a copy of the image you want to print.....just in case everything goes pear-shaped!

1. Open image in PS, then go to...window...workspace...printing and proofing.
2 A box will appear warning you that you are about to alter the workspace/menu settings etc. Click yes. Don't worry, when finished here you can go back to default like this.........window....workspace......default.
3. The appearence and familiar layers palette will now look different.
4. Now go to ...... view......proof set up.......custom.
5. You will now have a "Customize proof condition" window on screen. In this window go to drop down box "Device to simulate" then trawl down through the options.
6. At this stage you are looking for the print profile for the intended output. In your case it will be a pre-fix abbreviation for Canon (printer make) or perhaps just model name or number (pix or similar). For example my Epson pro 3800 appears in the list as PRO38. After this abbreviation will appear abreviation for paper types. If im printing onto premium glossy photo-paper, the profile I'm looking for is PRO38PGPP.
7. Once you select the correct profile, your image on screen will alter drastically. This is a far more accurate attempt to display how the image will look when printed onto your selected paper. If you don't like what yo see on screen now, you need to colour balance, check levels etc etc until you like what you see. Now print and you should be much closer to getting what you intended.

I'm off to give this a go :)

If you are operating Mac OSX, chances are the monitor is pretty good. The majority of recent day Apple monitors need very little calibration if you work in Adobe RGB.

I calibrate my monitor every month using Spyder Express

This may sound very long-winded, once you have done it a couple of times it will be second-nature. this is a much overlooked aspect of obtaining great prints. This is a very simple work-flow, it can be far more complex to get every ounce out of your picture, but this is a good starting point.

Printing is a difficult thing to master, but just requires a little understanding and a methodical consisitent approach.......you will be rewarded if you get to grips with it all !!

Hope you give it a go ??

Thanks ever so much for taking the time to run me through this. I honestly appreciate all your help and will let you know how things turn out.

All the very best my friend. I'm due you a pint or two:beer::beer:

[canonman]

Charley, the pleasure is mine if it gets you off in the correct direction

Too many people quit this aspect, it is such a shame because there are so many amazing things you can do with print settings etc. It is a huge part of being a photographer, and will give you so much pleasure when you crack it. So much more satisfying than having it done by others, save the realy big or special plexiglass or glicee prints for the specialists.

All the best of luck....

[dusktildawn]

Charley, the pleasure is mine if it gets you off in the correct direction

Too many people quit this aspect, it is such a shame because there are so many amazing things you can do with print settings etc. It is a huge part of being a photographer, and will give you so much pleasure when you crack it. So much more satisfying than having it done by others, save the realy big or special plexiglass or glicee prints for the specialists.

All the best of luck....

Cheers Mate!! If there's anything I can do to return the favour just let me know :) I tried what you said and noticed a dramatic difference. Gonna try a print will let you know how I get on.

Kind regards
Charley

[canonman]

Charley,

Did you make time to see Ansel Adams work in Edinburgh? Not sure if the exhibition is still running, but it is well worth a look. A Scottish landscape photographer by the name of Lindsay Robertson is showing alongside, well worth a visit whether you like the work or not. Great technicians the pair of them.......not to everyones taste, but then who is !!?

[bartonflyer]

Charley,

Did you make time to see Ansel Adams work in Edinburgh? Not sure if the exhibition is still running, but it is well worth a look. A Scottish landscape photographer by the name of Lindsay Robertson is showing alongside, well worth a visit whether you like the work or not. Great technicians the pair of them.......not to everyones taste, but then who is !!?

My son lives in Edinburgh & told me he'd been to the exhibition and was suitably impressed!

Back on the printing theme - you said that using AdobeRGB was a good option if you intend using a professional printing service. If you shoot in sRGB is there any mileage in converting to AdobeRGB or should you shoot in AdobeRGB from scratch?
You know, every time I think I'm just about starting to understand this something else comes along to tell me just how much I don't know

Cheers
Ian

[canonman]

There seems to be various arguments about sRGB/RGB workspace benefits, mostly I believe based on lack of understanding. Unfortuneatly like most things in this digital age, we tend to quite often confuse a new product or new system with the mis-conception that it is better. What I mean is, that just because something is launched today, doesn't necessarily mean that it is better. The camera manufacturers (without exception) have recognised this ever since digital cameras came on the market. They all produce new "improved" versions of old models on almost an annual basis. High pixel count has been a huge money-spinner for them, very few people ever get near to requiring a camera with more than 8MP, but the majority of people think more pixels means better image quality! Image sensor size is far far more significant than pixel numbers in that regard, but manufacturers don't say too much about that. And that is just for starters on the camera subject.

sRGB was introduced after RGB1998, consequently without actually taking time to understand what the difference is, most people assumed that sRGB must be a better workspace because it is new. The fact is, that sRGB is neither better or worse than RGB, it is just different. Using the letter "S" as a prefix is also a great way of subliminaly making us think something performs well......carried over from the car industry.

If print output is what you are aiming at, RGB is the space. RGB is also damned good at web display, but web display is far less critical than print. Modern monitors are becoming far more uniform in performance, and RGB therefore is pretty much visualy acceptable to the masses on-line.

Yes you can covert from sRGB to RGB, I for one however never stray from RGB for anything, as I have yet to find a reason to do so. I am a great believer in keeping things simple, I have no wish to complicate anything for the sake of it.

Obviously the choice is yours, if you are happy in your workflow and the end product, whatever way you achieve it is just perfect.