an old moan

[tonymidd]

I'm beginning to wonder if some of our members even own cameras.
There a heck of a lot who just visit, have a look round and go, all forums suffer from these but you'd think out of the number that visit here each day a few more would comment.

Then there are the regular contributers who rarely, if ever, post an image.

Of course there are one or two of the other sort who post but don't comment.

I know the world, and forums, are not perfect but this one does seem a wee bit lopsided at the moment. Remember you only get out of something what you put in.

[Jayne_yorks]

Perhaps the newbies feel like they don't know enough to give CC and just look rather than comment, i know personally i don't know enough to comment too critically but i do say if i like something or don't but i'm afraid at the moment thats as technical as i can get.

[tonymidd]

Perhaps the newbies feel like they don't know enough to give CC and just look rather than comment, i know personally i don't know enough to comment too critically but i do say if i like something or don't but i'm afraid at the moment thats as technical as i can get.

That's a point but it's not technical comments that improve the content of your images, it's the way you look and see what you're looking at. Technique can be taught, best way is go to college and be taught properly. Forums and camera clubs are not the places to be taught technique for two reasons, the best tuition is practical with help at hand as in the class room and those of us who are only too willing to help can pass on our bad habits, just like having a member of the family teach you to drive. Sadly in this digital age technique rules over content and that's IMHO the wrong way round. I can teach people how to take technically good photographs but it's extremely difficult to teach people how to SEE a good photograph.
Every one can look at a photograph and hopefully say what emotions are raised by it, that's what's important and what really helps you with the content of an image.

[BarryM]

how many of us look at a world famous painting, i.e van goughs sunflowers, the mona lisa, constables work. We make a decision as to whether we like it or not and probably why, but none of us are painters to that kinda scale. That is a critic to me, all be in a thought, so i feel anyone can look at an image, decide what they like about it, and if they actually like it.

[.Ray]

I'm beginning to wonder if some of our members even own cameras.

I personally don't mind if people don't feel comfortable posting pictures for cc, but would like to see more people participate in chats. I don't mind if novices make critical comments, so long they are justified and fair.

Perhaps we can have a beginners' competition to try attract more piccies.

Maybe we can be less harsh and less nit picking with our cc.. less "imagingistis"? I often bite my tongue with images when I know the shooter isn't experienced in the subject area.

I don't post as many images as I would like, partly because I'm a picky git who is never happy with my work, and partly because people here is a picky lot who are never happy with posted images. It can be real disheartening when you post a pic you think is not bad just to have someone list out all the technically faults with it, without mentioning any of the good points.

I know I am as guilty in nit picking every pic I come across (including my own), but I'm trying to include something good about every pic that I cc.

Barry's example with commenting on old masters' paintings is a good one, you don't have to be an expert to have a valid view, so long you are reasonable.

[Briddo]

I'm beginning to wonder if some of our members even own cameras.
There a heck of a lot who just visit, have a look round and go, all forums suffer from these but you'd think out of the number that visit here each day a few more would comment.

Then there are the regular contributers who rarely, if ever, post an image.

Of course there are one or two of the other sort who post but don't comment.

I know the world, and forums, are not perfect but this one does seem a wee bit lopsided at the moment. Remember you only get out of something what you put in.

Hi there Tony,
I can certainly be accused of the above, lately I have viewed and not posted an image or any comments.
I think I have had a crisis of some kind. I suddenly felt that my shots ( and I use that word in it's vaguest sense) were wholly inadequate and far below the standard of this forum - possibly compounded by my "shots" getting very few or no comments, it kind of made me feel that the shots were so bad that nobody thought they were even worthy of any comment at all. I am also guilty of the dreaded "nice shot" comment, although I did try to type my thoughts and did comment alot on other members stuff but felt that the "nice shot" comment was disapproved of by some members but I didn't feel adequate to give any CC. So I was put off for while joining in with this community.
Sorry to sound so negative but it is just the way I felt.

Jan

[Duncky]

Personally i think a lot of people possibly feel a little intimidated by the experience and quality of some of the images on here to offer their own views.
Dont get my input wrong - i think this is a very friendly and knowledgable forum, but there are clearly a lot of people on here who are either very proficient at picture taking or actually professionals in the field. its quite difficult for more junior followers of the hobby to try and become conversant in an area surrounded by pro's and not sound obviously out of their depth. Now i know democracy allows for free input from everyone, but if you dont feel adequately versed in the topic then its easier to say nothing rather than feel like you may risk embarrassing yourself by saying something out of context or totally off topic.
I posted a pic a few days ago titled "High Key". the comments i received were great and very satifying, however just about all agreed it wasnt actually "High Key". After realising i clearly didnt originally understand what high key was, i now know more about what it actually is. It hasnt put me off posting more pictures, but it did make me realise what a small fish i am in such a big pond.
I will endeavour to offer more views on my comments now... But if anyone thinks i am talking nonsense, maybe i will just have to refer them to this thread:ok:

[laurawilliams2008]

As a forum owner myself - (reptile and exotics related) i know how frustrating it can be, we get sign ups every day and people visiting, but at the moment were going through a slow patch with posting.There again the whole internet world is quiet at the moment ive found.

I have to stop myslef posting on here :laugh1: because i want to reply to everything!!!!!!

[Dotty.c]

Hi there Tony,
I can certainly be accused of the above, lately I have viewed and not posted an image or any comments.
I think I have had a crisis of some kind. I suddenly felt that my shots ( and I use that word in it's vaguest sense) were wholly inadequate and far below the standard of this forum - possibly compounded by my "shots" getting very few or no comments, it kind of made me feel that the shots were so bad that nobody thought they were even worthy of any comment at all. I am also guilty of the dreaded "nice shot" comment, although I did try to type my thoughts and did comment alot on other members stuff but felt that the "nice shot" comment was disapproved of by some members but I didn't feel adequate to give any CC. So I was put off for while joining in with this community.
Sorry to sound so negative but it is just the way I felt.

Jan

Hi Jan, I think the proplem here is there are just so many pictures posted and so many hours in a day that some posts just get missed. I usually try to comment on pics with no replies but just havent had the time to get on here as much as I did.


Personally i think a lot of people possibly feel a little intimidated by the experience and quality of some of the images on here to offer their own views.
Dont get my input wrong - i think this is a very friendly and knowledgable forum, but there are clearly a lot of people on here who are either very proficient at picture taking or actually professionals in the field. its quite difficult for more junior followers of the hobby to try and become conversant in an area surrounded by pro's and not sound obviously out of their depth. Now i know democracy allows for free input from everyone, but if you dont feel adequately versed in the topic then its easier to say nothing rather than feel like you may risk embarrassing yourself by saying something out of context or totally off topic.
I posted a pic a few days ago titled "High Key". the comments i received were great and very satifying, however just about all agreed it wasnt actually "High Key". After realising i clearly didnt originally understand what high key was, i now know more about what it actually is. It hasnt put me off posting more pictures, but it did make me realise what a small fish i am in such a big pond.
I will endeavour to offer more views on my comments now... But if anyone thinks i am talking nonsense, maybe i will just have to refer them to this thread:ok:

Oh dont let the fact that it's full of pro's put you off please. I never do a technical crit on any picture, cause even though i know what i'm doing and how to do it, I just cant remember all the correct technical terms, and i'm a pro. Every one knows what they like so every one can comment on a picture just remember to say why it either works or doesnt for you.

[David Worthington]

Personally i think a lot of people possibly feel a little intimidated by the experience and quality of some of the images on here to offer their own views.
Dont get my input wrong - i think this is a very friendly and knowledgable forum, but there are clearly a lot of people on here who are either very proficient at picture taking or actually professionals in the field. its quite difficult for more junior followers of the hobby to try and become conversant in an area surrounded by pro's and not sound obviously out of their depth. Now i know democracy allows for free input from everyone, but if you dont feel adequately versed in the topic then its easier to say nothing rather than feel like you may risk embarrassing yourself by saying something out of context or totally off topic.
I posted a pic a few days ago titled "High Key". the comments i received were great and very satifying, however just about all agreed it wasnt actually "High Key". After realising i clearly didnt originally understand what high key was, i now know more about what it actually is. It hasnt put me off posting more pictures, but it did make me realise what a small fish i am in such a big pond.
I will endeavour to offer more views on my comments now... But if anyone thinks i am talking nonsense, maybe i will just have to refer them to this thread:ok:


I totally agree mate...and probably i might be one of the guilty ones !!...your post has really made me think............Last year i took up archery for the first time and being a raw novice without a clue I havent even dared venture onto any "twanging" forums !!!...cos as I know diddle squat I would be bothered about making a plonker of myself........and now I find that inpart i have had the same effect on others in here......Its very difficult to be helpful without being overbearing and patronising......I for one will try harder from now on ..........thanks for posting your thoughts

[.Ray]

Every one knows what they like so every one can comment on a picture just remember to say why it either works or doesnt for you.

Can't agree more.

[Briddo]

Well whatever crisis I was having seems to of passed so I will be returning to annoying everybody and posting strange shots. At the end of the day I photograph stuff for myself ( and he who makes a mess) and if somebody else likes it well that's a bonus. I do so enjoy looking at other peoples stuff as well.

Cheers

Jan

[Chris Hawkins]

. Remember you only get out of something what you put in.

That's what I said, but got my head bitten off by a certain member for daring to say it!

[Lee Ash]

In every forum, there are always those who contribute in a social way and don't always dedicate their comments to the subject alone, but are generally more conversational and entertaining. I think this kind of input is equally of value.
Lee

[tonymidd]

....and now I find that inpart i have had the same effect on others in here......Its very difficult to be helpful without being overbearing and patronising......I for one will try harder from now on ..........thanks for posting your thoughts

I agree David it is difficult but a lot depends upon the attitude of the recipient, some want to be told how to improve, others think they know it all and lets be honest you never ever can do that. I find the most difficult situation is when others have praised an image with what, to me, is an obvious fault, very hard to then point out that fault. Equally difficult are those who tell you what a marvelous image they are posting...well self praise is no praise at all. Sometimes I feel silence is not only golden but a damn sight safer.

[tonymidd]

That's what I said, but got my head bitten off by a certain member for daring to say it!

Can't remember that Chris but who ever it was (hope it was not me:crazy: :)) said more about themselves than you.

[Briddo]

I'd like people to be honest, I know my photography skills are at a low standard and I strive to learn and improve everyday. I gain inspiration from the shots on this site and go out to try stuff myself ( Karls water shots for example).
I would prefer people to give comments good or bad rather than no comment at all.
I guess this could be difficult as we don't really know how people will react to critique however well intentioned it may be.

Jan

[.Ray]

...Sometimes I feel silence is not only golden but a damn sight safer.

Yes, silence can be golden and sometimes is safer, but we can't learn from it. Apart from learning photographic skills, we can also improve our social skills by practising our coaching skills, inter-personal skills, how to handle unfair remarks... This is the university of life, of which I don't plan to graduate for many decades yet.

[Lee Ash]

..... how to handle unfair remarks...

I think thats the most stupid thing anyone has ever said :grin: :grin: :grin:
Lee

[David Worthington]

I think thats the most stupid thing anyone has ever said :grin: :grin: :grin:
Lee

really Lee you should not be so aggressive and argumentative:laugh1:

[.Ray]

Oooh you stirrer :stir: Ok Lee, outside NOW! :nhl_fight (*ray makes a quick exit through the back door). :exit:

That was unfair:hissyfit:...

See how I handled that! ;)c

[tonymidd]

Yes, silence can be golden and sometimes is safer, but we can't learn from it. Apart from learning photographic skills, we can also improve our social skills by practising our coaching skills, inter-personal skills, how to handle unfair remarks... This is the university of life, of which I don't plan to graduate for many decades yet.

No you can't learn from silence but there are those who won't learn from comments.
It's a lot easier when assessing work face to face or even one to one, as with the mentoring programme, than in an open forum. It was probably before some of you joined we had some who just resorted to rudeness and obscenity when criticised so I'm afraid it's generally once bitten twice shy for the written word. Especially as there are still one or two who react in that manner.
I'm probably fast approaching graduation in the university of life which means for coaching skills I've some 40 years of experience teaching and assessing photography and as many on here know I'll help most people but I'll not put up with rudeness or sarcastic comments from smart ar*es.
It's noticeable that to express an opinion that does not conform with the majority can get some , shall we say , impolite reaction from those whose opinion is being questioned. It's a sign of maturity to be able to acknowledge that someone else's opinion has as much value as yours and that the person has an equal right to express it.

[Blue72]

unless its wrong :ok:

Because all images posted are subjected to opinion form diffrent people with different views, that doesnt mean those view are correct or incorrect.
If 10 people commented on an image you took and said it was "bad" would you believe it?
The next 10 may say its great? would you believe them?

One thing I have learned is to take away form here what you need to. You can judge a comment by the persons own abilities or they may indeed prefer one type of image to another but dont take it personally..i dont anymore.
I keep telling myself its because Im a young upstart adn you knwo what I am but I wouldnt nesscarily berate or ignore any members comments that I felt where different to that of my own.
I ve seen it myself on here,
An image been praised that is quite obvioulsy ( from a togs eye) incorrect in some way and dependant on who takes it, deternmines the c&c it recieves.

The social element is also an important part of this forum as we all need a break from taking and commenting on images.

Still I look forward to meeting up later in May adnn there we shall see how opinions differ especially if we all takle the same shot. I guarantee on here the same shot would be c&c'd differently dependant on the taker?

Cheers
Andy

[tonymidd]

unless its wrong :ok:

Because all images posted are subjected to opinion form diffrent people with different views, that doesnt mean those view are correct or incorrect.
If 10 people commented on an image you took and said it was "bad" would you believe it?
The next 10 may say its great? would you believe them?

One thing I have learned is to take away form here what you need to. You can judge a comment by the persons own abilities or they may indeed prefer one type of image to another but dont take it personally..i dont anymore.
I keep telling myself its because Im a young upstart adn you knwo what I am but I wouldnt nesscarily berate or ignore any members comments that I felt where different to that of my own.
I ve seen it myself on here,
An image been praised that is quite obvioulsy ( from a togs eye) incorrect in some way and dependant on who takes it, deternmines the c&c it recieves.

The social element is also an important part of this forum as we all need a break from taking and commenting on images.

Still I look forward to meeting up later in May adnn there we shall see how opinions differ especially if we all takle the same shot. I guarantee on here the same shot would be c&c'd differently dependant on the taker?

Cheers
Andy

You have a good point there Andy. Knowing who took the image can influence how you view it. You come to expect a certain standard from some togs and assess their work against that bench mark. It's a different ball game when 'judging' a competition, 90% of the time you've little idea who took the image so your assessment is much more impartial. In either case it's only an opinion and not set in stone.

[David Worthington]

speaking of "judging" NOT that we do that here, but in Cam clubs,,,,, I am no longer asked to judge at the Local club (of which I am an Honorary Member) because when i have judged a monthly comp etc i am asked to mark outta 20 ...so i did !!! giving a poor print 8/20 and the winner 20/20...cos to me its daft to award a poor print 12/20 and a good print 18/20 cos then you are only marking outta 6 or 8 points !!!

and the same applies here i think..... why say a poor post is "nice shot" when in your opinion its poor, either technically or asthetically, it helps nobody....and the author does not benifit from any CONSTRUCTIVE crit which maybe forthcoming.

it maybe taken the "wrong way" simply because the written word does not always convey the light / sympathetic intonation which was intended

[.Ray]

and the same applies here i think..... why say a poor post is "nice shot" when in your opinion its poor, either technically or asthetically, it helps nobody....and the author does not benifit from any CONSTRUCTIVE crit which maybe forthcoming.

it maybe taken the "wrong way" simply because the written word does not always convey the light / sympathetic intonation which was intended

Sure, saying "nice shot" when you don't mean it is worse than not saying anything at all. But when you genuinely think a shot is nice, then I believe there's no harm in just giving a pat on the back with a simple "nice" comment. Of course, giving a reason why you think it's nice will be better, but there are times when you may like an image without really knowing why - it just feels right. And just cos someone else spotted a flaw, doesn't mean you should automatically think the image no longer "nice".

And back to the original point about peeps not posting more...

It can be quite depressing (and prolly why people don't post more often) to post an image here, and either don't get any feedback at all, or every comment is a criticism (constructive or otherwise) whose writer just concentrated purely on the negative points and totally neglected the list of things they actually liked.

[george.monaghan]

speaking of "judging" NOT that we do that here, but in Cam clubs,,,,, I am no longer asked to judge at the Local club (of which I am an Honorary Member) because when i have judged a monthly comp etc i am asked to mark outta 20 ...so i did !!! giving a poor print 8/20 and the winner 20/20...cos to me its daft to award a poor print 12/20 and a good print 18/20 cos then you are only marking outta 6 or 8 points !!!

and the same applies here i think..... why say a poor post is "nice shot" when in your opinion its poor, either technically or asthetically, it helps nobody....and the author does not benifit from any CONSTRUCTIVE crit which maybe forthcoming.

it maybe taken the "wrong way" simply because the written word does not always convey the light / sympathetic intonation which was intended

Hi All,

Camera clubs, where I do judge, likes that system where a 20 point score shoule be somthing wonderful. The problem you have is that at times you have not seen all the images prior to juging so giving a top score early gives you little room if a better pic appears.

You look for the technical aspects first, exposure, sharpness (where it needs to be), does it meet the criteria of the compo. Then the rest is down to opinion.

You can/do give a full running commentary on each picture so everyone knows why the points have been awarded the way they have. You can also commend or highly commend pictures which appeal to you but may have not got top spot. This is you into the 17/18/19 marks bracket.

I have to say that if you make a particular comment about a flaw in a picture be very sure same flaw does not appear in any of yor own images. You do not have to be a great tog to be a good judge - but it does help. Can you imagine someone who produces 12 point images judging "YOUR" pictures?

I can always remember during a public exhibition in the city centre of Glasgow one of my images was "highly commend" and a person standing beside me said "how on earth did that get a highly commend". I had to reply. "Perhaps beacuse it is pin sharp, perfectly exposed, makes great use of space in the frame, and, more importantly, it funny". I had photographed a red bucket (kiddies) which had 2 large eyes, stuck in sand against the deep blue sky above, only the top of the bucket and eyes were visible at the bottom of the frame. I also asked him if he was going to comment further could he stop showing his ignorance - there might be another tog present. He was club tog who thought he knew it all.

Perhaps I should have said nothing - but like David said, it's about how you deliver the message and often the written word is simply not good enough.

[StuG]

........and the same applies here i think..... why say a poor post is "nice shot" when in your opinion its poor, either technically or asthetically, it helps nobody....and the author does not benifit from any CONSTRUCTIVE crit which maybe forthcoming.

it maybe taken the "wrong way" simply because the written word does not always convey the light / sympathetic intonation which was intended

Personally I've always thought you are quite good in that respect Dave, your posts in my experience have a good tone to them as do other posters on here. Unfortunately other do or at least have come accross as having their heads firmly up their own backsides, sometimes putting a little thought into your wording can make all the difference. ;)c



And back to the original point about peeps not posting more...

It can be quite depressing (and prolly why people don't post more often) to post an image here, and either don't get any feedback at all, or every comment is a criticism (constructive or otherwise) whose writer just concentrated purely on the negative points and totally neglected the list of things they actually liked.

One of the 1st things I learnt as a rugby coach is that if you want criticism to be constructive then always try to find something positive to talk about as well otherwise the receipients will just turn off. Wherever possible I always try to finish with a positive.

[kya]

Wouldn't it be boring if we all made the same comments and all had the same way of thinking..We are different so its up to all of us to take the comments we have on our images in a constructive way and take away what we need from them if we do not like a comment ignore it and move on you really do need to stop throwing your toys out of your pram...

There is no need to be rude there are always polite ways of saying things and as Stu says we can always add a positive to a negative..

Tony If I get a bad response from a couple of people on comments I have made, it would not stop me from posting on others images as the forum would cease to be a helpful one.I would simply just stop posting on that persons work!

[BarryM]

Shit shot = Bad comment, rude

Good shot = Nice comment, but why is it good?

Excellent shot = Nice comment, image works well with that person and perhaps see's nothing wrong with it.

Stunning shot = Lovely comment, nothing to be said about image, the criticeer is happy with the image in his eyes

Nice shot but.... = Makings of a great photo if photographer perhaps changes or next time round looks for the little things pointed out, from the critic persons point of view

Its not working for me because.... Excellent critic, again down to the perception of the commenter but with explanation it points out to the photographer some tips or tricks to work with next time, if PP then re edit.

That photo is crap = Just plain rude, go bile ur head in a bucket of week old stew and carrots. Not playing the game at all. Expect no response on your own photos with this comment.

:Dm :Dm

[.Ray]

...
That photo is crap = Just plain rude, go bile ur head in a bucket of week old stew and carrots. Not playing the game at all. Expect no response on your own photos with this comment.

:Dm :Dm

Unfortunately, these kind of comments do crop up every so often... and sometimes from senior members towards newbies, which doesn't help to encourage more pics. On a more positive note, I'm glad to say it happen less on this site than any others I've seen.