Nikon CLS "commander" mode

[Carmen]

I'm getting an SB600 flash soon, and I also have (or will have when it gets repaired) a Nissin Di622 flash gun.

My question is, the SB600 will respond as a slave to the built in flash in "commander" mode. My Nissin flash also has a slave function that enables it to respond to another flash output and it will work with iTTL when on the hotshoe.

BUT is "Commander" mode on the inbuilt flash a fancy flash mode that won't trigger the nissin when it triggers the Nikon flash, or should both flash guns be triggered by it??

I'm assuming both will, but does "commander" add some extra functionality that the Nikon flash will "read" that the Nissin will not or is "commander" mode just a way for the camera to automatically reduce the output of the inbuilt flash as it won't take part in the exposure??

[paulmag]

I dont know the answer but the best way to find out is to have a play

[Carmen]

I'll have to wait until I get both of them, as at the moment I'm flashless!! :laugh1:

[lostmysnorkel]

Can't wait until you can flash for us again!

Don't know whether the Nissin will respond to the Nikon CLS commands - you would have to check with Nissin about that. I'll be honest thoguh, I'd be very surprised if it does.

You won't look back once you've used the CLS system - I'm up to three SB-800s in my bag, and considering a couple of 900s now as well!!!!

(it's the ONLY reason they put those little pop-up flashes on the cameras!)

[Chris Hawkins]

I'm getting an SB600 flash soon, and I also have (or will have when it gets repaired) a Nissin Di622 flash gun.

My question is, the SB600 will respond as a slave to the built in flash in "commander" mode. My Nissin flash also has a slave function that enables it to respond to another flash output and it will work with iTTL when on the hotshoe.

SB600 does not have an optical slave mode

BUT is "Commander" mode on the inbuilt flash a fancy flash mode that won't trigger the nissin when it triggers the Nikon flash

Correct

, or should both flash guns be triggered by it??

No

I'm assuming both will

Wrong

, but does "commander" add some extra functionality that the Nikon flash will "read" that the Nissin will not

Correct

or is "commander" mode just a way for the camera to automatically reduce the output of the inbuilt flash as it won't take part in the exposure??

Please re-phrase the question!!!!!!!!

[lostmysnorkel]

The little pop-up flash will only add light to the image if you tell it to. (via the output controls in the camera menu). As far as I understand these techy things (Chris will correct me I'm sure) but the CLS uses Infra-Red to fire the salves, so not what we would call an optical trigger.

For portrait work, you can get fairly decent results if the SB-600 is set to TTL, and held 45 degrees to one side, with the pop-up at -1 or even -2 stops as fill.

[Carmen]

Ha ha, Ok I guess the actual question within the ramble of my thoughts was "will the commander mode fire both the Nissin and the Nikon flash"... LOL.

BUT the Nissin would probably respond to the Nikon flash going off and go off because of that. Theoretical set up here not sure I'd ever actually use it like that.

[lostmysnorkel]

BUT the Nissin would probably respond to the Nikon flash going off and go off because of that. Theoretical set up here not sure I'd ever actually use it like that.

Yes, if the Nissin has an optical trigger, it will fire BUT....

What will control the output of the Nissin?

You would have to set it manually, which kinda defeats the ease of CLS. Using the camera's meter, the output of the CLS flashes are controlled by the camera - so, sun out and flash - sun goes behind big dark cloud and FLASH!

The Nissin will fire at the same output each time and not increase/reduce with the changing light conditions.

[Carmen]

Yes the Nissin is manual only in slave. I guess I never actually saw anything that explained how CLS worked. I read the blog on strobist that Chris posted, which explained how it could be applied, but not really how it worked. I didn't know the pop up flash worked via infra red. So thanks for explaining that. Very clever, can't wait to get stuck in now!

[Chris Hawkins]

Let me try and clear this up. Bottom line: you can't do what you want to do with what you've got:(x

Yes the CLS works via IR - however, the on-camera flash fires normally - that is it can't fire just IR - it fires normally - the spectrum of light it produces spans both visible and IR light. The problem is that the IR part will programme and fire the remote SB600 and the visible part will fire the Nissin.

Both flashes will fire BUT not at the correct time. The problem is that the 600 cannot operate as a slave and the Nissin cannot operate in CLS mode.

When you fire the D200 it sends out some monitor pre-flashes - the Nissin has no idea these are pre-flashes and just fires in slave mode. So the Nissin will fire prematurely before the D200 or 600 is ready.

You have a few options:

1. Use the 600 on the camera and use the Nissin as an off camera flash.
2. Throw Nissin in the bin and get another 600.
3. Get a device that connects to the 600 to turn it into a slave. Lose all CLS functionality.
4. Connect the Nissin to the camera via PC Sync if possible.


Hope that helps :-)

[Carmen]

Thanks Chris, I came to the conclusion that the Nissin wouldn't work with the SB600 last night as I realised that the pre-flashes would set it off. In reality I'm not sure what I want to do but I did have a vague idea that perhaps I could get some light modifiers and stands and maybe use the flashes as semi-studio lighting if I wanted to, however as you say the Nissin won't work with the Nikon flash in this way.

Don't think I'll be binning the Nissin Di622 as it is a good and quite powerful flash (actually supposed to be a bit more powerful than the SB600) and works well with the D40 which doesn't have CLS functionality anyway.

I might try the SB600 off cam as Snorks suggested and maybe get a reflector to balance the light too if I wanted to use it in a "studio" fashion. (One day I might afford to get an SB800 or 900 to go with it!)

Just my overactive imagination running away with me a bit as I don't have either flash at the moment!

[Carmen]

Oh dear, I may have to get to grips with all this sooner than I thought as I've been asked to take some shots of a friend and her aussie boyfriend when he comes over from Australia at the end of July.....!

Come on SB600 hurry up and arrive!

[lostmysnorkel]

PM'd ya!

[Carmen]

Thanks Snorks,

I have said I'd do a shoot and told her I'm no pro etc (she said she couldn't afford a proper studio shoot). I've suggested she have a think about some outdoor locations that might make interesting backdrops. Even an industrial site or kids playground might be interesting or some fun shots, then hopefully the natural light will help me.... but I will still need to learn the iTTL-BL and fill flash stuff. Good practise for me though!!

[Carmen]

Sb600 arrived yesterday, unfortunately I didn't get much time last night but I did have a quick 10 minute play when I was supposed to be going to bed (another late night for me).

The controls aren't instantly intuitive, it took the manual and a bit of pfaffing to work out how to change the modes (the mode button doesn't do what you expect...it's actually a two button press), but overall I like it a lot!

It's not as powerful as the Nissin Di622 (the SB600 is smaller) and doesn't have quite enough zoom to match the long end of my 17-70mm lens (105mm equiv) which the Nissin does, but overall I can see why it costs another £100 or so over the Nissin Di622 as it's just more sophisticated in function. I played very quickly with the off cam remote CLS with the D200's speedlight in commander mode and I like it, can't wait to play more.

Can't wait to get the stand (should be today) and have a proper play.

[Carmen]

Had another play last night as my light stand turned up so I tried some self portraits (no-one else to take piccies of). Camera on tripod, SB600 flash on light stand, D200 in commander mode and tried various combinations of bullt-in flash on TTL or turned off and SB600 in differing bounce positions and angles from cam. I can see I have a lot to learn about all this though!

The commander worked really well, even when the cam was actually slightly infront of the flashgun. I love my SB600 - the problem is I now want another one or an SB800/900 to go with it!!

I also got my brand new replacement Nissin Di622 yesterday.... £80 inc P+P to the first lucky forum member who PM's me about it!!! (they're £99 brand new on Warehouse express).

[Chris Hawkins]

The commander worked really well, even when the cam was actually slightly infront of the flashgun. I love my SB600 - the problem is I now want another one or an SB800/900 to go with it!!

.

Generally it will work anywhere as long as there are reflective surfaces - I have it operating in other rooms and around 2 or 3 corners.

Yes, you'll always want more - I have 6 and that's not enough sometimes :-)

[Carmen]

Oh dear, that's dangerous, perhaps i should have stuck with the Nissin, no temptation then..... LOL

[lostmysnorkel]

I have three SB-800s, wish I had another three SB-900s!

[Carmen]

What's your usual set up Snorks with your flashes? do you use them outdoors as well as indoors as wireless flashes?

My little play showed me it'd be great to have two off cam flashes to fill in shadows, as the resutls were nice but I was getting a big shadow cast on the wall to one side, but I'm thinking a reflector (or my silver car screen shade...lol) on one side might balance it out nicely.

there was an article in "digital Camera" magazine a couple of months ago where they were showing a reader how to use a single speedlight on a stand to create dynamic outdoor portraits. It was not CLS i don't think as they were using a radio transmitter but it was a nikon flash/setup.

It was reasonable light in the shot (grey winter day though) but they looked like they were using the speedlight as the main light source, somehow it balanced with the ambient well. They just said they had the speedlight set on "auto" so I didn't really get what settings they used, but it was useful for ideas for when I do my shoot with my friend and her man.

Would you use the flash in this way outdoor - though I see that TTL-BL is not available with the flash off cam, or would you use it hotshoe mounted?

[Chris Hawkins]

What's your usual set up Snorks ,

Oh, that's right - ask him - not me :-) Just because he's just posted the best set of studio shots the Forum has ever seen, I get rejected :-)

[Carmen]

Aww sorry Chris, what's your set up too. I'm not sure if I've seen studio type shots from you....??? (must have missed some). Excellent damsel flies and the like though!

Controling flashes between different rooms and round corners sounds interesting though - what the heck were you doing there?

[Chris Hawkins]

Aww sorry Chris, what's your set up too. I'm not sure if I've seen studio type shots from you....??? (must have missed some). Excellent damsel flies and the like though!

Controling flashes between different rooms and round corners sounds interesting though - what the heck were you doing there?

LOL

Seriously, studio stuff is one of my weak points - I'm not in the same ball park as Snorks and many others here. You can get some nice ambient lighting effects by having flash coming around corners and from other rooms. Recommend you buy Joe McNally's new book - Hot Shoe Diaries - I think it will give you many ideas. Plus it really teaches you about mixing ambient and flash light with Nikon gear.

[Carmen]

Cool I'll have a look out for that one.

So much to learn, but unfortunately little practising opportunity and self-portraits aren't exactly the best for learning this sort of thing!! LOL Perhaps I just need to get a big teddy or something to practise lighting on.

[lostmysnorkel]

I'd recommend the McNally book too!

For weddings, I would usually keep one flash on-camera. This is used in the usual way for fill/natural light and can be switched quickly to be the 'master' when extras are brought in off-camera.

Off-camera Flash 1 - Key light
On-camera flash 2 - Fill/Master
Off-camera flash 3 - used if I need to throw a bit of light somewhere else in the scene!

I use the flashes in TTL, and dial in exposure compensation as needed.

#1 Bride - One SB-800 on stand, camera left as key. Allowed me to dial down the ambient and get the dramatic sky without underexposing the bride.

#2 SB-800 from left of scene on bride, flagged so no light fell on groom. Grid (Honl) on Sb-800 on groom and wall from nearer cam.

#3 Hand-held SB-800 with Apollo Softbox. Groom lit by ambient, bride by flash.

Different scenes, different uses.

[Carmen]

wow, some great examples thanks very much for that, it seems to be a really good system to get into once you know what you're doing with it.

With one flash only I'm more limited but I can use the onboard as fill I suppose. Hmm if i use a pop-up flash diffuser with the onboard flash would this ruin the CLS commands? Guess I can try this out tonight, from what Chris said about bouncing round corners I reckon it should be ok, but I'll see.

[lostmysnorkel]

No reason why it shouldn't work with the diffuser.

The third of the above pics was using the pop-up to fire the flash, which was hand-held.

Just being able to get the light source away from the camera opens up a whole new world!

[Carmen]

Oh dear, MPB photographic have a near mint boxed SB800 for £229 and will give me £50 for the nissin. I reckon I could get £80ish on ebay for the Nissin maybe but then have the hassle.

Should I go and spend any more money? I did want to get an SB800 eventually but wasn't expecting to come across this so soon. Is this a bargain, should I go for it?

[Chris Hawkins]

I woudn't call it a bargain, but about right. It's amazing how expensive Nikon gear has got. Since you have Commander on the D200 why not go for another SB600?

[Carmen]

The Nissin is on Ebay and I've bought the SB800 - just not quite sure how I'm going to tell my partner I've spent about £500 on flashguns, stands and light modifiers in the space of about a week..... oh dear!

CLS is actually my initials so I guess it's meant to be!

[Carmen]

I woudn't call it a bargain, but about right. It's amazing how expensive Nikon gear has got. Since you have Commander on the D200 why not go for another SB600?

ha another sneaky post!

Well I did ask if they had another Sb600 but they didn't and a lot of places are selling the SB600 for the same price as this SB800. (my SB600 was a bit less though I think the price has gone up a bit since).

I checked ebay and used SB800s were going for anything from £220 to £250ish with no guarantee. At least this one has a 6 month guarantee from MPB.